In this episode, you will discover how to effectively manage a multi-generational workforce, the significance of business continuity planning, and the value of maintaining basic skills in a technology-dependent world. Don't miss out on this engaging conversation filled with valuable insights for leaders and professionals in the tech industry.
Guest: Mike Shanko, Former Chief Information Officer
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/shanko/
Host: Dr. Rebecca Wynn
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/rebecca-wynn
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Episode Description
In this episode of the Soulful CXO, Dr. Rebecca Wynn welcomes Mike Shanko, an award-winning Transformation Chief Information Officer and Board Advisor. Mike's extensive experience spans across various industries, including his roles at Blue Yonder, U-Haul, Silicon Valley Bank, and Consumers Energy. He's been recognized with the 2024 HMG Global Leadership Institute Award and the 2022 Arizona Chief Information Officer of the Year by ORBIE. We discuss that cybersecurity is no longer just a technical concern but a strategic imperative for technology leaders. Understanding risk management and implementing robust cybersecurity measures are essential for managing organizations effectively and safeguarding against cyber threats in today's rapidly evolving technological environment. We also highlight the importance of embracing change and staying adaptable in the rapidly evolving technology landscape, especially with emerging technologies like AI. Mike emphasized that change is constant in the professional world, driven by technology advancements, leadership changes, restructuring, and societal impacts. Organizations need to pivot their strategies, teams, and build paths to adapt to these changes proactively. Check out the full episode for more insights and proactive action steps.
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Resources
Unlocking Cyber Resilience: Your Essential 2024 Security Guide: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/unlocking-cyber-resilience-your-essential-2024-guide-dr-rebecca-ecf7c/
2024 Predictions: Impact of AI on GRC: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/2024-predictions-impact-ai-grc-dr-rebecca-wynn-the-soulful-cxo-v7pdc/
NIST CSF v2.0: Simplified Cybersecurity Guidance: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nist-csf-v20-simplified-cybersecurity-guidance-wynn-the-soulful-cxo-efvvc/
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Embracing Change and Innovation | A Conversation with Mike Shanko | The Soulful CXO Podcast with Dr. Rebecca Wynn
[00:00:00] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: Welcome to the Soulful CXO. I'm your host, Dr. Rebecca Wynn. We are pleased to have with us today, Mike Shanko. Mike is award winning transformation Chief Information Officer and Board Advisor. His prior roles have included Senior VP, Chief Information Officer for Blue Yonder, VP of Infrastructure and Cybersecurity for U Haul, Senior Director, Continuous Improvement, IT Engineering and Operations for Silicon Valley Bank and Executive Director of Technology Strategy Management for Consumers Energy.
He was honored as the 2024 HMG Global Leadership Institute Award winner and the 2022 Arizona Chief Information Officer of the Year by Orbi. Mike, it's great seeing you again. Welcome to the show. Thanks
[00:00:52] Mike Shanko: Rebecca, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
[00:00:56] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: You have a vast background. How did you even start [00:01:00] in cybersecurity?
Tell us about your journey.
[00:01:03] Mike Shanko: I think, uh, for, for many of us in the technology sector, I would say as we grew our careers, regardless of what our, Our starting point was development for infrastructure desktop. For me, it was desktop. Um, but as I grew in, my career became very apparent early on at cyber security was going to become a necessity for us.
Um, and, and as a leader, right? You, you spend a lot of time trying to understand the technology. You try to understand the implications to the business. Uh, and before you know, it's, you're, you're spending the vast amount of your time as a senior leader in a technology organization dealing with cybersecurity related incidents, um, to the point where you start to look at where organizations need to take that and start to build actual practices around cybersecurity directors, CISOs, CISOs, or, or, you know, different varieties of that role.
Um, but as a CIO, you end up. Um, really being key to, to, to managing risk for the company. [00:02:00] And I would say that also exists with the directorships with, with management roles as well. Um, you have to create risk maps. You have to understand your risk from a client's perspective, cybersecurity perspective, and you really need to become astute as to all the things that are happening in that space.
And for me, naturally, um, As I took on different roles through different organizations, I had the opportunity to take on responsibility for cybersecurity. And through that, right, it really started for me in the utility sector. More than any, it's a, it's a different world. We've talked about operational technology, securing the grid, whether that be gas, electrical water, and then, um, you know, obviously the other aspects of cybersecurity, key controls for, for, for, uh, SOCs and JSOCs, as well as other things that you need to do from an administrative perspective are also putting up those additional boundaries to be able to secure the type of infrastructure that you're supporting, uh, whether you're in manufacturing, you're in healthcare or you're [00:03:00] in utilities, there's a whole different gamut of regulations that we have to adhere to and becoming aware of those really position and create position, be able to offer guidance to your company, to your associates, uh, on cyber security.
[00:03:15] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: It's interesting your background because not many people are able to successfully make a transition through the many sectors like you have starting out in utilities and going to banking and going on with technology. Can you just walk us through how that even happened? Because a lot of times today.
They're like, you weren't in healthcare for 20 years. So I won't even go ahead and entertain possibly for you to be, you know, one of our leadership positions as a CTO, CIO or CISO and vice versa, maybe going from financial services into pharma or something like that. How did that happen for you?
[00:03:49] Mike Shanko: Yeah, you know, this, that's also a very, um, interesting journey for me and the fact that I didn't really set out in the beginning to say, I want to go work in all of these different [00:04:00] verticals, uh, and I've been blessed across my career to work at some fantastic companies with really wonderful people that gave me the opportunity to do other things.
So, um, As you transition though, from one company to the other, I was with the modern utility for really the first 12 years of my professional career. Uh, I had an opportunity to go and interview with Pfizer. Um, you start to meet people along the way that, that give you the guidance on how The strength of the company and what the company is doing.
We start to get a lot more interest, right? And how can I make a difference? So you think about pharmaceuticals, my time with Pfizer, Pfizer is making a difference in everybody's lives every day. It's providing, you know, critical medications to, to customers around the world and patients around the world.
And you know that you can contribute to that, right? So for me, as, as I transitioned from one vertical to the other, uh, it's, it's been true. Kind of organic or inorganic for me, [00:05:00] uh, with, with relationships that I've established over the years. But I will say that going from one company to the other, your, your knowledge of cybersecurity, your knowledge of technology is transferable technology process.
Technology solutions are almost all, you know, the same. They're not that unique that you can't run the same type of solutions or systems, a utility company that you run in a pharmaceutical company or a client services company. Um, where the differences really come in is, is the regulation and uh, understanding the business itself, right?
Great grant of starting that, that acumen that is necessary to become the leader or the individual contributor that you need to be for the specific role that you're hired and that's where people come in. That's where the mentorship comes in. Now let's say always be inquisitive, always take the time to, to dive in session your first 90 days and get to know the people, get to know the business, how the company makes money, what are [00:06:00] the regulations, and if you're in a role where you're accountable for those regulations or for that compliance, you certainly need to become, you know, uh, expert level, uh, to, to be able to speak to them and make sure that you're putting the right controls in place to protect and preserve the company.
But it is unfortunate, as you say, right? It's if, if it doesn't say healthcare on your resume, chances are you may not get into, um, the healthcare role or the AI that reviews resumes when you apply for a role may automatically admit you because you don't have that healthcare. So I think that's where your network comes in.
And being able to prove yourself as a consistent individual contributor or leader and being able to show and demonstrate that you have that innate ability and an inquisitive nature to go out and prospect, learn about the company, learn about the organization, learn about compliance internally and externally, and that will position you well.
Regardless of what vertical you're looking to go to.
[00:06:56] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: It is pretty interesting when I talk to HR [00:07:00] professionals and who usually reach out to me through LinkedIn about potential jobs, it's interesting. They're like, we usually don't even get an opportunity to interview people like you. I think us hybrids.
, are not a dime a dozen there might, , it might be, there's only one in 10, 000 of us who are really those true hybrids have been in multiple sectors who understand multiple regulations who have bought, who have built multiple teams, but it's interesting. So I think we're the unique niche. Is that what you find to I, that's who I look to hire for me on my teams too, is those, those niche people who are great hybrid people and agile.
[00:07:38] Mike Shanko: I definitely see that as well. Rebecca. Um, you know, for me, I said, it kind of happened inorganically and organically over time. But as I progressed in my career, it actually became something that I wanted to do. I became intrigued by regulation and working in utilities. You get to work not not only internally, but internally.
You had to work with state governments, uh, public [00:08:00] utility commissions, the office of the inspector general and cyber security space. As you know, there's many opportunities and invitations, whether warranted or, or not to come to Washington and to partake in some conversations. And throughout all of that, it just, for me, it kind of piqued my interests and it became a driver for me that, Hey, I want to go learn about these different industries because it only makes me stronger as an individual.
And as a leader. Um, positions me very well to have the diversity go work in any role, but as you look at, you know, hiring people or even let's say in a company itself, some people tend to stay in their lane that they're comfortable with. And, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think there's a place for, for both where, where there needs to be, um, folks who want to stay in those career paths and stay in that vertical forever.
It makes them very strong, makes them, you know, 30 year veteran, 20 year veteran. Off of their trade, but they might miss out on an opportunity to do something. That's even more exciting than what they were doing today. Um, [00:09:00] missing out on an opportunity to learn the different walks walks of life for business.
And then even, you know, as you progress to that, and you start to work in more companies, you start to see the similarities. And you start to be able to connect the dots a little bit better to see how, you know, supply chain, for example, impacts retail and how retail impacts the distribution networks. So for, for, for all of us to be able to put together those pieces, we have to have exposure to that.
It's not something that you can pick up a book and see, you know, those differences as easily. You have to go out there and experience it.
[00:09:32] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: Yeah. I think it also allows us to. Change a lot quicker with emerging technology, because it's generally we've seen a lot more variety in the technology. And we're also used to working with current operational state and also moving to new operational state.
How have you been able to help your teams transition to. The emerging technologies, such as a I, because right now, a lot of people are fearful of their jobs, and I think they should be [00:10:00] fearful if you're stuck in traditional cybersecurity infrastructure networking, and you are not trying to learn how these new technologies can be used for the good.
You better start today versus yesterday. Um, what did you, if you point on that and how do you position yourself and how do you position your teams for more success in the emerging technologies that are going so quickly today?
[00:10:22] Mike Shanko: Yeah, I, I kind of live by and have said those who are listening to this, a part of my team, I'm not hearing this for the first time for sure, that it changes.
The only thing that's constant in life, right? And God, the set of variants of that, uh, at some point, you know, For, for us in the professional world, in the enterprise world, we see that each and every day, we see that change is going to come, it's going to come rapidly through technology. It's going to come through a leadership change in companies, restructuring, uh, mergers and acquisitions, you name it, right?
So change is going to get us not to mention societal, societal, societal impacts. Um, we think about [00:11:00] what happened. During COVID 19, nobody could have ever planned for that. No one knew what to do, but we figured it out, right? As organizations and as people, we figured out how to make life work. And some of us play very big roles and in being able to adapt to that.
So for, for any change that's coming in an organization, I think it's very important for a leader to understand that they need to bring their team along for the ride. And change sometimes happens to us on this remotely, we can't necessarily control what that change is, but in, in, in most cases, you're going to have some type of a glimpse as to what kind of change is coming here.
If you're doing your due diligence and you're looking at ahead at the technology, if you're looking ahead of what the business leadership is doing, what the board of directors wants to see, you're going to be able to start to pivot. The organization, your strategy and your team to start building a path to get there.
And if, if you're bringing along your, your individual contributors, you're showing them, what does this change mean to [00:12:00] them? Organizational change management is key here in giving people the opportunity to, to be a part of some projects, to be a part of the discussions. Take training, and sometimes training is hands on training.
It's being a part of a conversation. Sometimes it's just figuring it out as we go along. It's not always going to be some type of structured training. And with that, um, you start to see people that are piquing interest. And sometimes you're very fortunate and you have individuals that are going to take the ball and they're going to run with it.
They want to be the, the, the advocate for that change. And then ultimately. They become a champion for the change. And on the flip side, there are some people that are going to really struggle with change. And I think that's where you as a leader have to really understand people at an individual level, um, pay attention to how, uh, they're, they're accepting and adapting to that change, but putting the pieces together in front of them, helping them feel comfortable with it, letting them know that, Hey, we're learning this together.
This is [00:13:00] not do it or, or, or by a situation. This means we're going to figure it out over time and we're going to position ourselves better. AI is moving at a faster pace than any other technology. And we've ever really seen in my professional career. And with that, you can either get in front of it. You can enable it, you can get people that the brains to go out and test and lay around at the early days and in the adoption while you as a leader are working on policies, structure, education for the team, education for the business, you getting to understand what this is meaning from an implications to the business perspective and then filtering it back to the teams.
But you have to allow them to innovate, you have to allow them to play, you have to let them know that it's okay to fail. In the case of AI, failing fast is going to be important, but you can get in front of it, and you can enable it, or you can stand there and let the wave crash you, crash over you as it goes by.
I prefer to be in front of it.
[00:13:57] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: Yeah, I agree with you. I think creating some sort of [00:14:00] sandbox where you have innovation labs. Where data analytics architecture, , being able to go ahead and even do capture the flag moments and stuff like that on your teams is really important. A lot of times people get fearful of that. There's also, like you said, there's outside ranges.
I know here in Arizona, we have a big cyber, , range. Both of us are from Arizona, that you can use as well too, and be part of those groups. And people don't always take advantage of that. A lot of times I think that Your advantage has to come a hundred percent of work and I'm encouraged people outside there, whether it is being involved in a professional organization, whether it's being involved in a meetup group or webinars and stuff like that, get involved outside of work as well, too, because there's great things out there and your work just doesn't have enough time or resources to be your sole source of learning new knowledge.
Would you agree with that?
[00:14:51] Mike Shanko: Totally agree with that. I mean, you make an excellent point that learning is not something that we can depend on just our company to do something we have to take on our own. Right. We got to [00:15:00] do our own research. We've got to get out and have conversations. Uh, some people are very comfortable in public setting and making relationships and networking, uh, other should not, and that that's, that's okay.
But you do need to at least put your best foot forward and get out to, you know, do the research, whether it's in a cyber range or. An old school library, uh, or, you know, go online. There's so much content that's out there. Uh, but you have to be a champion for your own cause as well. It's something that you're interested in.
Then go out and get it. If you're in the technology or cybersecurity sector, and you're just me. Excuse me, but you're just waiting for somebody to come by and give you the guidance that's needed to take on the next step of your life. That's probably not going to happen. Of course, the person could have people that are advocates and championing for you, but you have to put the best foot forward just as your leadership does.
Um, and those 2 things come together. Now you have somebody who's innovating on behalf of the company, but you're also, you know, improving yourself and giving yourself really an opportunity to be, uh, ahead of the game within your organization [00:16:00] or potentially, you know, making yourself a subject matter expert that, that people can fund draw on for opinions.
And now you're building a network of your own based on the trust and the confidence and the knowledge that you have available to you.
[00:16:14] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: And one of the things I think is a challenge as a leader is, you know, it used to be a long time ago, pardon me, where people would stay in a job 10, 15, 20, 25 years. And even if in your heart, you would like to find that one company that you could stay with for seven, 10, 15 years, it's just not the way the world is geared anymore.
You almost need to look at yourself as a maturity model. And what, what stages of that maturity model are you the best leader in? Are you a person to come in and they're, they're bootstrap company and it's to help them determine what technologies they need to put in and kind of what their team structure should be.
And then you pass it on to the next leader who really is the builder of the teams. And then they pass off to the person who's really, I call more of a stabilizer, the [00:17:00] person who go ahead and like, how can we really run those successfully for five, seven. Maybe 10 years, and then you have people like where, we're really mature.
We're looking at maybe going ahead and starting to acquire other companies and things like that. But you'll, you have to really look and see where you are as an individual anymore on that maturity model, and then start to see what are the companies that I best align with on the maturity model, maybe they're at the maturity model or that department, is that what you're seeing too, that's
the paradigm shift that I think I've also seen the last 3 or 4 years.
[00:17:29] Mike Shanko: Um, I could say I can look at this and do this and do it for lenses. Um, as I mentioned before, I was, I've been less to work at some fantastic companies over the years, uh, and I think in some verticals and some sectors and some companies, um, it is very, uh, possible.
To start your career and end your career there, and I've seen that, especially, especially in the utility space. Um, that's, that's a, uh, a common theme where you have people that start off, you know, maybe as a media reader. Back to one of my former CEOs who [00:18:00] started off as a media reader in their career, I think, when they were 16, and they grew all the way to the CEO of the company.
Um, which is a fantastic, right? That's that's that's a great story. Um, that builds so much pride in that company. It builds so much pride in the organization. And now you feel like you're a part of that, right? And in his case, he absolutely was. He was a part of the brand of that company and probably will be for decades to come.
On the flip side of that, um, because everything is changing, right? And this is, this goes back to the dynamic of how do we adjust to change? Um, chances are, no matter what industry you're in, no matter what vertical, it's not going to be the same five years from now as it is today. And that is because of the fast pace of change in innovation.
Um, things like AI, right? Not only AI, but AI has been around for a while now. It's very much mainstream, but it is on everybody's radar. And now everybody's asking questions. What can I do differently? What should we do differently? What kind of technology now is up in the middle of the [00:19:00] slides that wasn't available 10 years ago.
So we have to come to the realization that those outs, those external drivers are going to impact how we, you know, manage inside the business. So I think staying at a company for a long period of time, um, may still be very, very possible. I think staying in the same role. At a company for a very long period of time is probably not, no longer, um, you know, a viable solution because your job is going to be changing in some way, right?
And you can, again, you could grow with it. You can adapt to it. It can change along the way. You can improve upon it. You can be the driver for that change. But again, if you're going to.
So I definitely feel like that may be changing the catalyst, and then we might see more people that are changing more frequently. You know, in a 3 year period, 2 year period. Um, and some of that is also affecting You know, just changing generations. Um, there's, there's a difference in what people desire and what they want.
Some people get bored quickly in their [00:20:00] roles, right? Where they feel like they've reached the potential at one organization and they want to go on to the next. So, um, I'm very happy to see that it's, it's not just. About compensation for some, it is for many. It's not. It's how can I continue to grow myself?
How can I continue to be motivated and feel like I'm making a difference? And I think that's one of the drivers that we're seeing now with the rapid change through technology, through pace and through the organizational construct itself.
[00:20:28] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenges, too, is it's one of the very few times, whether it depends on how you want to count it, do we have four generations or five generations that you're trying to manage and technology, and that is a challenge because every one of those generations, the way they like to communicate is different as a whole, their communication channels is different as a whole, how they like to balance work life, , is different as a whole and their sensitivity, on how they like to interact and discuss things with people is different.[00:21:00]
How have you been successful in that or what are the biggest challenges that you find that? I find that pretty challenging. I know one of the things I like to do is almost you have to see people's like "My Ways of Working" or something like that and have them fill it out on their communication style.
And you have to, as a leader, you might have to communicate things in five different ways because trying to get them only to hear your way. Takes a lot of time and extra processes versus at times to go ahead and to say things maybe slightly different in four different ways so everybody can pick it up quicker.
It's almost like to me, like when I teach universities, you have to have a variety of ways that you say it so people can pick it up a lot quicker.
[00:21:40] Mike Shanko: Um, again, you're spot on right to unpack 2 different, um, responses here from from your statement. But the 1 of the 1st of all, I'll touch on is how do you how do you get the message across to people?
And I do think if you have 100 people in a room, chances are, you have 100 different understandings of what the speech [00:22:00] was. The message was delivered. We're all going to internalize it a little bit differently. So, having different mechanisms to be able to, um, Um, Catch the eye by something that triggers them for me.
I'm a very visual learner. So I like to see things in, in, uh, architectural diagrams. I like to see materials that, you know, if I want to dig deeper, I can, I want that high level 1st understanding and then I start to dig deeper from there. Uh, others like words, others like messages for conversations. And, um, now you think about how.
The generations are, are getting their content. I look at my, my niece who's just turned two and the fact that she had an Android device and an iPad when she was just after one years old and she's learning her alphabets and her colors and so on. But at the same time, she's learning interfaces. She's learning how to interact with the computer, the machine, the droid.
Um, you know, and then I go back to, to my children who are now, uh, [00:23:00] 17, I'll soon be 18. 21. They also have access to technology, you know, at a fairly early age, but for them may have been seven or eight. So it's getting younger and younger. And then on the other side of that, we have the community of folks who are getting close to retirement age, right?
Or, or at retirement age, and they need to be, um, Receiving information differently, not everybody's going to grow at that same pace that everybody's going to want to swipe left and swipe right. Some want to still scroll through an email. Some still want to have that conversation. And I think as an organization, as a company, as a society, we just need to respect that.
Everybody's different. Everybody's going to internalize the message different. And this is, um, Something that we, when we think about the topic of diversity, it really is a, it's not just, um, diversity in race or sex or preference, but it is diversity involved. It is diversity in how we operate. It is really [00:24:00] each person is an individual.
We have to recognize that we have to try to, um, you know, connect with them in some way or the other in a manner that's going to make it efficient for them. Now, of course you can't do a hundred different ways, but to your philosophy of five different ways, seven different ways, even in the change management world, you say, Hey, you have to communicate something seven times before somebody hears it.
So I think you just understanding your organization, understanding the talents, um, the generational barriers that you might have, you have to find a way to connect to them in all ways as effectively as possible.
[00:24:34] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: And I tell people, it does go Part of your business continuity as well too, if you think that you will always have technology, whams if that technology goes down, right?
What is your backup to the technology? Um, and we've seen that. We've seen that recently when the healthcare systems recently have gone down even in our own state. And then no, there's no access to those formal records and stuff like that. Where is it on, on records? Where is it written down and stuff like that?
And I tell [00:25:00] people remember if technology totally goes offline. You are going to need people who who can read a manual. You can go ahead and pick up that book and things along those lines. I, I don't lose those skills and rely solely on technology. Don't lose the basics is what I always tell people. And unfortunately, I think we're losing the basics.
Right?
[00:25:20] Mike Shanko: Yeah, we're very dependent. Um. As a society on technology in so many different ways, you brought up the healthcare incident that happened a few weeks ago. And we're talking about medications. We're talking about people get their medications delivered to them through pharmacies. And we're so dependent on that.
We're so dependent on getting a text message. Now, this is a, your refill is ready. Um, do you want to come pick it up or do you want to refill or do you not need a refill? Um, if that goes away, we have to go back, you know, the simplest analogy, we have to go back to managing it our own. And not everybody's capable for maybe they have some medical condition that doesn't allow that, which these tools are fantastic for.
But for us, [00:26:00] um, you know, we should try to maintain that. Hey, I'm still accountable for the inventory of that medication at my home, right? Um, and, and teaching your, your children, uh, putting the tools in place, say it's always have a what if in the business world, we call it business continuity planning. So the example that you gave is a strong one.
There was also a recent issue with cell phone outages, right? With AT& T and, and you would not. Believe how many people right lost their minds because they couldn't communicate for whatever period of time that was. Um, the, the art, the art reality is, is, and so we know this is a cyberspace for sure. For every technology that comes out, there's houses, if not millions of people who are trying to disrupt that technology.
We're trying to find a way to disrupt it so they can utilize that to their advantage for some way, some reason or the other. Right. And what we have to understand is. When we create a dependency on something that could be taking away immediately, um, we're putting [00:27:00] ourselves, our family, our jobs at risk. So in the business space, it's that business continuity plan.
So I'd say we need to have a business continuity plan for ourselves, and we have to have alternative ways of working, which is why process is such a very, very important thing. And when you think about what AI does and other automation toolkits, um, it Takes steps away from the process, makes it easier for the human to to interact or to get their work done.
But the reality is, if that goes away, we still have to have people that are knowledgeable are trained and we can do it in a compliant way. I talked about medications again. You can't just. You know, write it down on a notepad and leave it under the keyboard anymore. When somebody is looking for the medication, you have to have a process that also adheres to the policies and regulations that you have to maintain.
You have to have a record of that. So have some type of a paper trail. And I'll, I'll end this comment with, with one statement. So this was actually back in the second year of [00:28:00] my professional career. Um, one of the leaders back at Pennsylvania American water. Uh, he had said, I don't need any of this technology beep.
I can just do it on pen and paper. And, you know, coming in new to the company, new to the business world. Um, I, I felt, I felt that was very, you know, misguided for him to say, right, technology is going to innovate. It's still the art of my career. But the reality, I look back now at that comment, it's still on my mind.
If he didn't have that mindset. When these things did come, he would not be able to run his business. He would not be able to provide to his customers. So while his intent, what may not have been, um, portrayed in the most efficient way, uh, it was definitely the message that stuck with me and I think still stands true.
You have to have an alternative. You have to have a way to operate. And you need to be able to do that without a dependency on technology all the time.
[00:28:54] Dr. Rebecca Wynn: Absolutely. Our time has totally flown by. I want to thank our audience for joining us [00:29:00] this week. Please go ahead and look at the descriptions where you will go ahead and find all of Mike's, contact information, as well as some other resources.
Please go ahead and like, subscribe to the channel. Please share it with your friends. Mike, it was so great having you on the show and to share your insights.
[00:29:17] Mike Shanko: Thank you so much, Rebecca. I truly enjoyed being here.
Great conversation. And you did a great job of facilitating a wide, wide range of topics.